Leggiamo Tronti Comments http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com Notes on Mario Tronti Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:50:09 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: proletinkult http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-45 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:01:03 +0100 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-45 Ecco the complete translation: http://www.geocities.com/cordobakaf/tronti_refusal.html Ecco the complete translation:

http://www.geocities.com/cordobakaf/tronti_refusal.html

]]> by: Rosie http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/02/07/lenin-in-england-2/#comment-43 Sat, 28 Apr 2007 20:51:10 +0100 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/02/07/lenin-in-england-2/#comment-43 These comments have been invaluable to me as is this whole site. I thank you for your comment. These comments have been invaluable to me as is this whole site. I thank you for your comment.

]]> by: Alex http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/23/class-and-party-2/#comment-42 Tue, 28 Mar 2006 13:32:04 +0100 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/23/class-and-party-2/#comment-42 Hi Nate, That's an interesting question and I'm not quite sure I know the answer. I think Tronti could be read as not calling for the specific organizational form of the party. This may be only because he does not spell out at all clearly what this "party" looks like. I also get this impression at times from the vague descriptions he does offer such as when Tronti talks about the factory being inside the party and vice versa (this is the kind of thing I want to look over again in this chapter) He is also clearly not calling for an electoral machine. However, this doesn't mean that the organizational form of the party is excluded. Parties are not always electoral machines. But it could be that "party" is just Tronti's name for the working class Organization that Tronti clearly thinks is needed. Again, not sure. It depends a lot on how one reads Tronti's vague descriptions of the "workers' party." However, I think Tronti is clearly calling for a hierarchical organization given mainly that he grants monopoly over tactics to the "party" and its leaders. A generous reading of Tronti may interpret Tronti as saying that only an organized working class is able to be effective on the tactical terrain. I think this would be a very generous reading. Even if this is the case, I think the logic of Tronti's argument, his separation of strategy and tactics, applied in practice leads to hierarchical forms of organization. Maybe Tronti calls for the Party or not, but either way I think hierarchy is the mode of operation for the "workers' party." So in the end, even if Tronti doesn't call for the Party, his organization has a lot in common with it. Hi Nate,

That’s an interesting question and I’m not quite sure I know the answer. I think Tronti could be read as not calling for the specific organizational form of the party. This may be only because he does not spell out at all clearly what this “party” looks like. I also get this impression at times from the vague descriptions he does offer such as when Tronti talks about the factory being inside the party and vice versa (this is the kind of thing I want to look over again in this chapter) He is also clearly not calling for an electoral machine. However, this doesn’t mean that the organizational form of the party is excluded. Parties are not always electoral machines. But it could be that “party” is just Tronti’s name for the working class Organization that Tronti clearly thinks is needed. Again, not sure. It depends a lot on how one reads Tronti’s vague descriptions of the “workers’ party.” However, I think Tronti is clearly calling for a hierarchical organization given mainly that he grants monopoly over tactics to the “party” and its leaders. A generous reading of Tronti may interpret Tronti as saying that only an organized working class is able to be effective on the tactical terrain. I think this would be a very generous reading. Even if this is the case, I think the logic of Tronti’s argument, his separation of strategy and tactics, applied in practice leads to hierarchical forms of organization. Maybe Tronti calls for the Party or not, but either way I think hierarchy is the mode of operation for the “workers’ party.” So in the end, even if Tronti doesn’t call for the Party, his organization has a lot in common with it.

]]> by: Nate http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/23/class-and-party-2/#comment-41 Tue, 28 Mar 2006 05:08:17 +0100 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/23/class-and-party-2/#comment-41 hi Alex, Thanks for this. Tronti doesn't really seem to have an argument for why he's not an anarcho-syndicalist, does he? He just seems to assert things about the Party and the need for it, and doesn't even really give us a ton of details about what he means by 'party'. The whole 'only the party' thing is really weird. Do you think that for Tronti it's that the class needs a party (the specific organizational form of the party, whatever he means by that), or do you think it's that the class needs a deliberate organizational form and 'party' is just Tronti's name for that? take care, Nate hi Alex,

Thanks for this. Tronti doesn’t really seem to have an argument for why he’s not an anarcho-syndicalist, does he? He just seems to assert things about the Party and the need for it, and doesn’t even really give us a ton of details about what he means by ‘party’. The whole ‘only the party’ thing is really weird. Do you think that for Tronti it’s that the class needs a party (the specific organizational form of the party, whatever he means by that), or do you think it’s that the class needs a deliberate organizational form and ‘party’ is just Tronti’s name for that?

take care,
Nate

]]> by: Nate http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-40 Mon, 20 Mar 2006 07:11:20 +0000 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-40 hi Alex, I made the change you suggested. Thanks for that. I hope your move and all that works/worked out as best as possible. take it easy, Nate hi Alex,
I made the change you suggested. Thanks for that. I hope your move and all that works/worked out as best as possible.
take it easy,
Nate

]]> by: Nate http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-39 Thu, 16 Mar 2006 07:27:39 +0000 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-39 Thanks Alex. That makes more sense. I had a really hard time with the first half of that sentence. If I was being more careful I should have checked the Italian and/or French against the Spanish. There's frequently words used with different sense than what I'm used to and so I find them really puzzling, nearly gibberish in some cases. It's like I get stuck in one meaning of the word. Reference to other languages, even ones I don't really know can help me to break out of that and see a different meaning that makes sense in context. (Or just looking in a decent dictionary!) best, Nate Thanks Alex. That makes more sense. I had a really hard time with the first half of that sentence. If I was being more careful I should have checked the Italian and/or French against the Spanish. There’s frequently words used with different sense than what I’m used to and so I find them really puzzling, nearly gibberish in some cases. It’s like I get stuck in one meaning of the word. Reference to other languages, even ones I don’t really know can help me to break out of that and see a different meaning that makes sense in context. (Or just looking in a decent dictionary!)
best,
Nate

]]> by: Alex http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-38 Tue, 14 Mar 2006 18:20:43 +0000 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-38 Hi Nate, Just one minor thing I wondered about though not completely sure myself. "It is not in vain that it remains united, as a discovery, with the Leninist initiative of the Bolshevik October." The French uses "hasard" which I've translated as "by accident" and "lie" which I translate as "linked" or "tied to" as in "It is not by accident/chance that it remains linked to the Leninist initiative of the Bolshvik October." The meaning remains pretty much the same in any case. Alex Hi Nate,

Just one minor thing I wondered about though not completely sure myself.

“It is not in vain that it remains united, as a discovery, with the Leninist initiative of the Bolshevik October.”

The French uses “hasard” which I’ve translated as “by accident” and “lie” which I translate as “linked” or “tied to” as in “It is not by accident/chance that it remains linked to the Leninist initiative of the Bolshvik October.”

The meaning remains pretty much the same in any case.

Alex

]]> by: Nate http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/03/class-and-party-3/#comment-37 Tue, 14 Mar 2006 10:05:28 +0000 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/03/class-and-party-3/#comment-37 ps - I think the 'new type of experience' thing in the title could also be 'new type of experiment'. I'm not sure, I'll have to have a look, but I know in Spanish in some cases the same word can mean either experience or experiment or both. ps - I think the ‘new type of experience’ thing in the title could also be ‘new type of experiment’. I’m not sure, I’ll have to have a look, but I know in Spanish in some cases the same word can mean either experience or experiment or both.

]]> by: Nate http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/03/class-and-party-3/#comment-36 Tue, 14 Mar 2006 10:03:42 +0000 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/03/class-and-party-3/#comment-36 hey Alex, Good luck with your move. I don't know anyone in Montreal. You might post something to aut-op-sy. (I've hung out with several aut-op-sy folk in the UK and had a great time.) I was thinking the other day that once I've learned to speak some French I should come up to Canada for a trip, to practice. That'll be a good long while, though. I hope you'll participate in the Strategy Of The Refusal discussion at Long Sunday, me and Eric are writing stuff for it. There might be room in the rotation still, if you want to write something, or you could always post something here. I printed out all the stuff from this blog a while ago, before you posted your translation. I've been reading over it slowly. Good stuff here, I think (I'm not impartial, of course). That's a nice feeling. I'm still snowed under with other work but will be back into the Tronti book as soon as I can. take care, Nate hey Alex,
Good luck with your move. I don’t know anyone in Montreal. You might post something to aut-op-sy. (I’ve hung out with several aut-op-sy folk in the UK and had a great time.) I was thinking the other day that once I’ve learned to speak some French I should come up to Canada for a trip, to practice. That’ll be a good long while, though. I hope you’ll participate in the Strategy Of The Refusal discussion at Long Sunday, me and Eric are writing stuff for it. There might be room in the rotation still, if you want to write something, or you could always post something here. I printed out all the stuff from this blog a while ago, before you posted your translation. I’ve been reading over it slowly. Good stuff here, I think (I’m not impartial, of course). That’s a nice feeling. I’m still snowed under with other work but will be back into the Tronti book as soon as I can.
take care,
Nate

]]> by: geo http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-35 Mon, 13 Mar 2006 19:21:05 +0000 http://leggiamotronti.blogsome.com/2006/03/11/short-excerpt-from-strategy-of-the-refusal/#comment-35 yes, i noticed that they had left that bit out of the translation..... these things are always strange. it was probably omitted for the lenin reference or the critique of stalin, but it's hard to tell which. yes, i noticed that they had left that bit out of the translation….. these things are always strange. it was probably omitted for the lenin reference or the critique of stalin, but it’s hard to tell which.

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